I decided to stop windows development - at least for a while. This means there will be no binary packages from my side for 4.2.4 and 4.3.x but I hope Saro will do them.
The main problem I see is the missing communication between the hobby programmers (like me) and the developers who get paid for their work on KDE. When you take a look at the kde-windows mailing list you will see that there's not much activity. And I don't think there's nothing to discuss... :(
Another problem I've is that I could not fix bugs in kdelibs just because the dependencies are moving fast and since we have to take care for all system libs (png, xml, openssl, pcre, ...). Making sure that they're up-to-date can take a lot of time. And when I finally managed to compile a KDE program I hit compiler errors. This is all fixable but not when you've only a little amount of time for KDE development.
I'm also disappointed by the role of the firms involved in KDE/windows development. Two years ago they asked us what they can do for us. We told them that we need:
*a continuous build like the buildbot from Dirk Müller
* a proper dbus/windows implementation
* a server to place our binary packages
* a good packaging system for the end user
But in the end nothing happened so we did all by our own (whereas I played the buildbot). For a long time we did not hear anything from them (except Jaroslaw Staniek was paid by one of them and therefore no longer had time for KDE/windows development). The did an own KDEPim/windows package and used an own packaging instead our KDEWin-Installer. I even could not build kdepim with emerge because of compiler errors...
And now some weeks ago they decided to finally start to fix the dbus/windows problem - but instead using the sourceforge windbus project they simply decided to start their own project. I was very angry about this step because they did not even ask if they could use it. Now we've three dbus projects - official dbus, windbus and the new dbus/windows implementation...
We'll see how KDE/windows evolves and maybe I'll participate on the development again but for now I'll step over to Linux and see how to help KDE there.
Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009
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28 Kommentare:
Christian: this really sucks. I understand your irritation very well. imho the KDE-on-windows effort is very important - and currently it works already surprisingly well. The big missing piece is KDE-PIM, and it is sad to see the KDE PIM efforts on windows are not coordinated with the KDE-windows team!
very sad indeed, I have very little time myself to dedicate to kde-windows and I haven't done anything useful in months, that leaves us with just saroengels and ralf habacker as active developers
Can't openSUSE's Build Service not be extended to support Windows (via MinGW or Cygwin?) and Mac OS X? That way it could handle the dependencies itself...
Sounds like a bit of a mess ("politically", at least) - I hope this provides the impetus necessary to get dialog started up again and that this all gets solved amicably.
In the meantime, you will be missed - those of us that must use Windows at work hope you all can resume your efforts soon! :)
Thank you for all you have done so far. I hope you will be back and things will get better.
Windows users for whom I have installed KDE progs have been very impressed.
Christian, I have been very happy with your efforts in Windows porting. Thanks a lot for all of that and have a lot of fun on Linux.
Cheers,
Jos
In my opinion KDE on Windows is very important for KDE in general, and I know a lot of people are enjoying KDE on windows.
I sincerely thank you all for your efforts so far, for turning KDE on Windows into reality.
And have fun hacking KDE on its native platform (Linux) :-)
I understand the new dbus for windows is meant to be merged into mainline dbus isn't it? The fact that windbus was never merged into mainline dbus doesn't say much about the formers codebase...
Really I guess the problem is that the KDE Windows developers are half upstream (fixing various issues in KDE itself) and half downstream (packaging whats essentially a entire distribution of software). That's a lot of work!
You did follow up on those firms?
It's not enough them promissing it, it takes a lot from you or a team to actually make those firms do something.
thanks for your effort - i am using your packages too..
Seems KDAB is only interested in their own business, or they think the KDE/Windows team is totally stupid:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dbus/2009-April/011207.html
And when even KDAB (until now known as one of the 'good guys') acts like this, then all hope is lost.
Thanks for your effort on these packages. However I can't help but think that the project is perhaps not taking off as well as it could be because it's just so hard to install KDE programs on Windows. I know how to do it, but only because I've used Linux for years and know exactly what modules different programs come in.
And the apps are excellent. Just recently a co-worker asked me where I got that awesome hex editor (Okteka). I tried to email him the steps of how to install it on Windows, but it is waaay too complicated. No normal human being will ever be able to install a kde application with the current installer. That is a critical piece of the puzzle to get more users (and perhaps eventually developers) involved.
Reaching consensus is always difficult, but sometimes we should try hard to communicate each other at our best. If, even after several attempts, you get nothing out of proper team work communication, then maybe it's time to change something (for example you decided to change the focus of your work).
Looks like you just got owned, kiddo. You owe an apology.
"Looks like you just got owned, kiddo. You owe an apology."
Don't be so childish, and I'm quite sure that Till would not look upon this as an "ownage" nor feel that an apology is necessary.
Glad to hear you are moving your efforts to Linux, one of the things that puts me off KDE is the work being put in to run it on Windows. It's a serious strategic mistake IMO.
Do we need to give people more reasons to use Windows?
I think what you've managed to do has been very impressive. I was very happy to be able to run Konqueror when I was stuck on windows.[*] I haven't done much with windows for ages, but I managed to install all the development tools without any trouble, so your installer can't be that terrible. ;)
I know that people use this stuff: I've seen the bug reports. Take heart, your work is appreciated.
[*] The this-project-is-bad-because-it-involves-windows crowd should take note, when you are in that kind of position, it is a lifesaver to your sanity! And they obviously haven't seen someone *beam* after finding out they could run KDE on computers they weren't allowed to convert to linux.
I am not n really sad about that. Who needs Windows anyway?
When the project was first announced I thought that KDE 4 would be ported to windows in a way that it could replace the whole Windows DE, that one would be able to choose between the Windows desktop environment and KDE on logon just like it's possible to choose between Gnome, XFCE and KDE on Linux given that all three are installed. It turned out that instead, KDE programmes were ported to Windows, what actually made the whole thing uninteresting for me.
I honestly don't care if this project will live or die because KDE doesn't need Windows to be successful.
KDE 4 is already kicking butts and will continue to do so with or even more without Windows.
And if windows users want to use Amarok and all the other wicked KDE programmes then they should make the effort and install Linux, after all it's free ;)
The main KDE codebase needs all the hands on deck that it can manage. It's tough competition out there. Most people really want to use what they perceive to be #1 not #2 or #3.
All KDE can be run on Windows from a virtualized solid Linux distro. Virtualization (and LiveCDs) means now all Linux work is cross-platform automatically. Why do twice the work on so-called ports to Windows?
Let's not forget that many Windows protocols are patented.
Why debug over closed platforms? It's a lot more efficient to debug over open platforms and help open platforms while we are at it.
Linux belongs to everyone. Everyone just doesn't know it yet.
Thanks, from a long-time KDE user.
Kolab has a beta version KDE's Kontact for Windows (go to help->change application language to make it english instead of german).
Were you working with them, or did they start this themselves?
Sorry, forgot the link:
https://wiki.kolab.org/index.php/Kontact_for_Windows_(beta-huge-debug)
Why would you take a shitty interface that tries to rip off Windows already shitty interface, and do it poorly, and then port it to a shitty operating system?
Gnome and KDE are both garbage on the highest order of software garbage, not far away from Windows itself. But at least Windows interface has people who are talented in user interface design working on it. There is not one open source program in the entire world that has a properly useable user interface.
Blade, open your eyes and stop denigrating Linux without cause. There are so many similarities among the main 3 desktop operating systems that your comment clearly betrays your ignorance (or fear or spite).
"Windows interface has people who are talented in user interface design working on it"
You could have fooled me .....
That's a shame.
It means that KDE on windows will be stopped.
Well, I guess KDE has to go back to be NO cross-plattform Desktop Environment...
http://www.kdenews.org/2009/06/08/kde-windows-continues
KDE on Windows continues
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